May 24, 2004
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More Heresy
My feelings about history are
love/hate. I’m very much interested in what went on in the
past. History does not always record that. Histories are
written by the victors in wars or by scholars under the patronage of
rich and powerful men. Another subject that has always interested
me is religion. It used to astound me how little knowledge
Christians (adherents of the only religion with which I had any contact
during my youth) had of the history of their religion. I was
naive then, thinking that everyone was like me. Now Greyfox has helped me to see and understand just
how little the average person knows, or wants to know, about anything.I have always wanted to know… anything, everything, whatever. I
have come to value my associations with others who likewise want to
know. I learn from them, and I try to pass along some of what
I’ve learned elsewhere to them. This is part of such an effort,
and was instigated by krisinluck.
I made a start on it a few days ago, and when I realized what a big job
it would be, I allowed myself to go off on a personal tangent and put
off the big task. I would not feel right about
putting this off any longer, but it’s a
chore. Reading it may be a chore as well. This will be long
and information-dense. Most of this blog will be transcription,
not simply
keyboarding to record my own thoughts. The mechanical aspect of
this is laborious to me.I spent a couple of days searching the
web, hoping to find some suitable texts I could copy and paste
here. I found translations of some original sources at Fordham
University’s Internet Medieval Sourcebook.
However, the translations are often stilted and obscure, and extracting
the points I wish to make from original sources is another laborious
chore. I mention the sourcebook for those scholars who wish to
consult primary sources.To make my point and fulfill my
commitment to say more about the arguments between Pelagius (and other first millennium heretics) and the
fathers of Monasticism and modern Christianity, I find it simpler to quote secondary sources
(the works of historians) and, first of all, a summation of the
case from a (well-researched) work of fiction. The passage begins
with a Roman legate just returned to Britain from Rome, speaking to his uncle:
“…Are you familiar with Augustine, the Bishop of Hippo?”
Again, I felt a sense of things of import crossing
my horizons. I shook my head. “No, not at all. Tell
me about him, too.”
“Well,” he went on, with a barely discernible
hesitation that was emphasized by its briefness, “Augustine is one of
the most respected scholars of the Church. A very wise and
learned man and a famed interpreter of the Word of God.”
“Oh! One of those. That sounds ominous. Go on.”
“Augustine, whom most men call a saintly man, has
come into conflict with Pelagius–or, rather, it’s the other way
around. Pelagius has locked horns with Augustine.”
“So? What’s the problem of the saintly Augustine?”
“Pelagius thinks he is a hypocrite and a liar.”
I whistled to myself. “Has he told him so?”
“He has told the entire world.”
“Why? For what reasons?” In spite of
myself, in spite of the fact that I knew nothing of this Pelagius, I
felt dismayed by this last statement of Picus’s. “If, as you say,
everyone thinks Augustine is a saintly man, your Pelagius runs a very
real risk of being thought a madman, or a trouble-maker.”
…”Quite so,” he said. “But it is bigger than
that. Augustine is the champion of the theory of divine
grace. He is a man of God. A bishop. But in his youth
he was a notorious womanizer…. Anyway, he has a prayer that has
become notorious… that God would send him the grace to find
chastity… but not yet! …Augustine believes that man is
incapable of finding or winning redemption without divine help.
He believes that man is born damned, in mortal sin. Only baptism
will wash away that sin, and only divine grace can enable man to stay
away from sin thereafter. He believes that all of life is a
temptation and that man should spend his life in prayer, abandoning
himself to God’s mercy in bestowing grace upon him.”
I nodded. “That, my young friend, is the view
one tends to get from an ecclesia. That is what all the priests
say. There’s nothing new in what you’ve told me, except the
saintly bishop’s own example…. And you say Pelagius finds fault
with this?” He nodded. “How?”
“Totally. Pelagius believes that the entire
concept of grace is a man-made device invented by the Church to keep
all men in bondage.”
“Hah! Come on now, your friend Pelagius is
beginning to sound like one of those old women who sees a rapist behind
every bush. How can divine help keep men in bondage?”
“It works by making men forget that they are made in
the image of God Himself, and therefore able to determine between right
and wrong.”
I saw the flaw immediately. “But that’s not possible. Your man is
mad! Men have known the difference between right and wrong since
Eve ate the apple. The knowledge of good and evil. Men have
always known the difference.”
“Exactly, Uncle. That’s what Pelagius says….
Pelagius argues that man, made in the image of God, knows the
difference between good and evil, and has the ability to choose between
them, and has always done so, even before the time of the Christ.
Even barbarians have their moral laws, unwritten though they may
be. Pelagius sees this divine grace as an instrument of men,
designed to keep all other men in subjugation and reliant on the Church
as the only intermediary between God and man. He sees Original
Sin as an invention foisted upon men by other men to make all men
guilty at birth, and therefore incapable of freedom of choice from the
outset….
“It comes down all the way to personal
responsibility. Carried to its logical conclusion, the concept of
divine grace destroys the basis of law. …in the absence of
grace the fault for crime can be laid right at God’s door.
“…Pelagius believes, as the Scripture tells us,
that God made man in his own image. If man has the attributes of
God, he says, then man must have free will. The majority of men
know that society demands certain rules for the governance of property,
sanity, decency and dignity. Those rules constitute the
law. Pelagius maintains that a man–any man–born with the divine
spark is free to choose between good and evil as defined by both Church
and society. If he chooses to go against the law, be it divine or
human, that choice is his own and he has to be prepared to accept the
responsibility for his choice in the eyes of God and in the eyes of his
fellow men.”
“It takes a lot of nerve to go against the
Church. I’d never heard of this fellow Pelagius before this
morning, but he makes sense to me, too. How far has this argument
between them gone?”
“A long way. It’s the talk of Rome.”
“Sound’s like it might become the talk of all the world. And you say this bishop is powerful?”
“Extremely. He has powerful friends, great influence. Some say he should be Pope.”
“Sounds like your friend Pelagius is spitting into
the wind. Will they reach an agreement? Some kind of
compromise?”
“How can they? They’re like day and night.”
“Aye, and darkness is falling quickly, it would
seem. Does Pelagius have any support within the Church? Or
is everyone convinced he is possessed by evil spirits?”
“He has support. In plenty. Many of the most powerful espouse his cause.”
“How many? In terms of odds, I mean. Is there an even match?”
“Perhaps. There could be. If we were
dealing only in numbers…. The question here is one of basic
policy. An army mutineer may have some right on his side in terms
of the conditions that drove him to mutiny. But he has to die for
his mutiny, no matter how laudable his cause might have been, no matter
how understandable and sympthetic his motives. Mutiny cannot be
condoned, no matter what the justification. To condone one
instance of mutiny would be to invite, and to incite, the eventual and
inevitable destruction of all the armies. So it is with
Pelagius. He has to lose, or overthrow five hundred years of a
Church established by the Christ Himself, with all its rules and
methods. Pelagius knows this, Publius, he is not a stupid
man. He is not challenging the Christ’s Church but men’s
corruption of it, yet he knows he is too late to alter what others,
stronger than he, have been building for centuries with a view to
making it eternal. You see, Pelagius’s doctrine, if you want to
call it that, destroys the need for a Church just as surely as
Augustine’s doctrine destroys the need for the law. Pelagius is
saying that every man carries the Church within his heart, and that he
can commune directly with God by simply meditating! Augustine is
saying that man is absolutely nothing without the Christian Church,
which has as its symbol the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven. The
Church already speaks for God. Pelagius speaks for man.
Therefore, Pelagius must be defeated in this struggle.”The Singing Sword
by Jack WhyteI perceive a belief in such a “grace” to
be what the psychological field calls, “magical thinking.” I
encounter a form of this type of thinking in the, “suit up, show up,
get a sponsor, work the steps,” party line in 12-step groups. It
neglects to mention the most important aspect of recovery from
addiction: abstinence, which is the personal responsibility of
the addict. I have watched, in the past year, more than a few
people come in, hear that message, swallow it, and try to make the
magic work for them but end up relapsing and not understanding why,
feeling that God has rejected or abandoned them because He did not give
them his grace. But that is just one little personal
illustration of the concept, and the idea is much larger and more
pervasive in our culture than this one instance I’ve given.The heresies suppressed by the Church in the Middle Ages were a lot
more numerous than just those of Pelagius, and “Saint” Augustine was
not the only miscreant who distorted, corrupted and perverted the
teachings of Joshua ben Joseph, the Christ, for his political
aims. I mentioned “Saint” Jerome in my previous heresy blog, and the
granddaddy of them all, Saul of Tarsus, the Apostle Paul. Paul apparently
hated and feared women, and his influence can be seen in Augustine’s
writings. Paul also made an impression on “Saint” Ambrose, who
lived in the latter half of the fourth century. His father had
been the Roman Prefect of Gaul. I’ll take the easy route now, and
copy-and-paste some of the words of historian Richard Hooker, before I go back to transcribing from my library:One of Ambrose’s most significant legacies to the Middle
Ages and the medieval church was his fierce hatred of women. Like many
other bishops, he felt several pressures urging the church to gender
equality. On the one hand were communities of virgin nuns who were held
up as the highest exemplars of spiritual life; on the other hand, the
Gnostic religions, including Gnostic Christian religions, accorded
women something approaching gender equality. Yet still there was Paul
of Tarsus, who claimed that women shouldn’t speak on matters of
doctrine. So Ambrose concluded that church offices, ie, the priesthood,
should be completely closed off to women. It wasn’t enough to assert
this; Ambrose had to prove why women were insufficient to occupy
priestly offices.He argued that women were fundamentally flawed, especially
in the area of sexual control. He believed that women were destined,
through their sexuality, to always tempt men as Eve had tempted Adam.
This was not the fault of men but rather the fault of women’s lack of
sexual control. In many ways, Ambrose’s exclusion of women from church
office reflected the Roman exclusion of women from offices. Ambrose,
however, introduced a radically new element to Roman misogyny—he linked
female inferiority to female sexuality. It was female sexuality that
was the threat and the fundamental flaw of women; this was the logic
that explained such paradoxical views as holding up virgin nuns as
being the highest examples of spirituality while at the same time
denying women any official role in the church. One cannot overestimate
the influence of Ambrose’s linking of misogyny with female sexuality—it
is the single most dominant aspect of gender relations from Ambrose to
our time.Perhaps more disastrous was Ambrose’s religious
intolerance and his legitimation of this intolerance. Throughout the
early years of Christianity, the religion lived alongside a multitude
of other religions. On the one hand was Roman and Greek paganism, the
official religion of the empire; on the other hand were a multitude of
other religions, from ethnic religions such as Judaism to mystery
religions such as Gnosticism and Mithraism. Not only did Christians
live side by side with these religions, but they often crossed over and
sometimes incorporated elements of these other religions into their own.When the Emperor Gratian (375-383) signalled that the
state religion would not be paganism by removing the statue of Victory
from the Roman Senate, Ambrose formulated an argument that if were Rome
were a Christian empire, no other religion, including paganism, could
be tolerated. In his debate in the Roman Senate with Ambrose, the pagan
Symmachus argue eloquently for religious tolerance, but Ambrose argued
that there was one and only one correct religion and all others should
be stamped out.This position soon became the church’s position and had
two far-reaching consequences. From the fourth century onwards, one of
the principal characteristics of Christianity was its intolerance—in
fact, often extremely homicidal intolerance—of other religions. For
Rome, however, this religious intolerance was one of the central
reasons for the disintegration of the Roman Empire. In many ways, the
Roman Empire held together because of its religious tolerance. Subject
states did not enjoy being under the empire, but the cultural and
religious freedom that they had at least made it bearable. When the
Christian Empire began to suppress native religions, areas under Roman
control soon rebelled. These rebellions fractured the empire in pieces
at a point in time when migrating Europeans were invading the frontiers.Monasticism
The triumph of the church resulted in
problematic changes to the church. Ambrose, as noted above, began a
trend of reconceiving clerical office as something more along the lines
of secular offices. The Roman concern with practical administration
drained much of the spiritual mission of the early church. The
Patristic writings departed significantly from the spirituality of the
earliest Christian texts; in the place of faith and insight they
offered only rationality and arguments. This secularization of the
clergy and the church as well as the rationalization of Christian
discourse led to the growth of a new Christian phenomenon, monasticism.The earliest monks were not clergy, but ordinary
individuals who fled the poverty of the church to live spiritually
dedicated lives while suffering extreme poverty and self-affliction.
Seeing the church as too worldly and too materialistic, they lived
solitary lives of severe ascetism, or “world denial.” This form of
monasticism in which an individual ascetic lives alone is called
eremetic monasticism, that is, the monasticism of a hermit.Monasticism first appeared in the eastern reaches of
Christianity in the third century when the Roman Empire seemed to be
falling apart; in this sense, monasticism was related to the anxiety
and uncertainty of the age. It did not really spread, however, until
after the conversion of Constantine and the realignment of the church
along more material and political lines. At that point, the practice
spread throughout the east to Egypt and North Africa. The extreme forms
of eremeticism are legendary; these ascetic monks soon were sought out
by Christians who literally worshipped them and the various material
that came in contact with them—or came out of them.In the fourth century, monasticism soon adopted a communal
form. Again, monks were not clergy but rather laymen that came together
in a community to remove themselves from the world. This form of
monasticism, called cenobitic monasticism, was most successfully
implemented by Basil (330-379), who, after a time as a hermit monk,
came out from the wilderness to found a community of other monks.The most essential difference between the communal
monasticism of Basil and the eremetic monasticism practiced before was
the nature of self-discipline and rejection of the world. The eremetic
monks would discipline themselves to reject the world by engaging in
self-torture, sometimes bordering on the psychotic. Basil, however,
believed that one could discipline one’s body and will as well as
reject the world through constant labor rather than self-torture. So
the community of monks he set up engaged in constant physical and
spiritual labor; this would become the pattern for both Western and
Eastern monasticism.Now, I think it’s obvious that where Saul of Tarsus,
Ambrose, and their ilk erred was in ignorance. They did not know,
and if they had been told they would have rejected the idea, that like
other animals humans are subject to hormones, pheromones and other
neurochemicals. The chemistry of sex is not all that different
from the chemistry of addiction. Oh, some of the chemicals are
different (dopamine is one that is the same), but their profound effect
on the minds in the bodies those chemicals are controlling are
practically identical. Just as the founders of Alcoholics
Anonymous eighty-some years ago and the founders of Narcotics Anonymous
fifty years ago didn’t know about the neurochemistry of addiction, the
early Church Fathers knew nothing of the neurochemistry of sex.They saw women in thrall to their natural reproductive urges using
every wile at their disposal to attract men to father children for them
and to hold them there to support those families they produced.
They themselves felt the effects of the women’s pheromones on their own
hormones, and they blamed the women. Of course… who else were
they going to blame, God? Not hardly! He was the Big Guy,
and you know you don’t go picking on the Big Guy when there’s a little
person around you can pick on. The same dynamic goes on today in
households where men bring home their frustrations with the government
or their employers, and release them in domestic violence against their
wives and children.Now, from Will Durant’s The Story of Civilization, Volume 4, The Age of Faith:
CHAPTER III The Progress of Christianity 364-451THE foster mother of the new civilization was the Church. As the old
order faded away in corruption, cowardice, and neglect, a unique army
of churchmen rose to defend with energy and skill a regenerated
stability and decency of life. The historic function of Christianity
was to re-establish the moral basis of character and society by
providing supernatural sanctions and support for the uncongenial
commandments of social order; to instill into rude barbarians gentler
ideals of conduct through a creed spontaneously compounded of myth and
miracle, of fear and hope and love. There is an epic grandeur, sullied
with superstition and cruelty, in the struggle of the new religion to
capture, tame, and inspire the minds of brute or decadent men, to forge
a uniting empire of faith that would again hold men together, as they
had once been held by the magic of Greece or the majesty of Rome.
Institutions and beliefs are the offspring of human needs, and
understanding must be in terms of these necessities.I. THE ORGANIZATION OF THE CHURCHIf art is the organization of materials, the Roman Catholic Church is
among the most imposing masterpieces of history. Through nineteen
centuries, each heavy with crisis, she has held her faithful together,
following them with her ministrations to the ends of the earth, forming
their minds, molding their morals, encouraging their fertility,
solemnizing their marriages, consoling their bereavements, lifting
their momentary lives into eternal drama, harvesting their gifts,
surviving every heresy and revolt, and patiently building again every
broken support of her power. How did this majestic institution grow?It began in the spiritual hunger of men and women harassed with
poverty, wearied with conflict, awed by mystery, or fearful of death.
To millions of souls the Church brought a faith and hope that inspired
and canceled death. That faith became their most precious possession,
for which they would die or kill; and on that rock of hope the Church
was built. It was at first a simple association of believers, an ecclesia or gathering. Each ecclesia or church chose one or more presbyteroi–elders,
priests–to lead them, and one or more readers, acolytes, subdeacons,
and deacons to assist the priest. As the worshipers grew in number, and
their affairs became more complex, the congregations chose a priest or
layman in each city to be an episcopos–overseer,
bishop–to coordinate their functioning. As the number of bishops
grew, they in turn required supervision and coordination; in the fourth
century we hear of archbishops, metropolitans, or primates governing
the bishops and the churches of a province. Over all these grades
of clergy patriarchs held sway at Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem,
Alexandria, and Rome. At the call of a patriarch or an emperor
the bishops and archbishops convened in synods or councils. If a
council represented only a province it was called provincial; if it
represented; if it represented only the East or the West it was called
plenary; if both, it was general; if its decrees were accepted as
binding upon all Christians, it was ecumenical–i.e., applying to the oikoumene,
or (total Christian) inhabited world. The occasionally resultant
unity gave the Church its name of Catholic, or universal.This organization, whose power rested at
last upon belief and prestige, required some regulation of the
ecclestical life. In the first three centuries of Christianity,
celibacy was not required of a priest. He might keep a wife whom
he had married before ordiantion, but he must not marry after taking
holy orders; and no man could be ordained who had married two wives, or
a widow, a divorcee, or a concubine. Like most societies, the
Church was harassed with expremists. In reaction against the
sexual license of pagan morals, some Christian enthusiasts concluded
from a passage in St. Paul (I Cor. VII, 32), that any commerce between
the sexes was sinful; they denounced all marriage, and trembled at the abomination of a married priest. The provincial council of Gengra (circa 362) condemned these views as heretical,
[emphasis added] but the Church increasingly demanded celibacy in her
priests.. Property was being left in rising amounts to individual
churches; now and then a married priest had the bequest written in his
name and transmitted it to his children. Clerical marriage
sometimes led to adultery or other scandal, and lowered the respect of
the people for the priest. A Roman synod of 386 advised the
complet continence of the clergy; and a year later Pope Siricius
ordered the unfrocking of any priest who married, or continued to live
with his wife. Jerome, Ambrose,
and Augustine supported this decree with their triple power; and after
a generation of sporadic resistance it was enforced with transient
success in the West. [more added emphasis]The gravest problem of the Chruch, next to reconciling her ideals with her continuance,
[yeah, this is me again calling your attention to a select portion of
Durant's text--just assume that any boldface type is my doing and all
within brackets is my addition, okay?] was to find a way of living with
the state. The rise of an ecclesiastical organization side by
side with the officials of the government created a struggle for power
in which the accepted subjection of one to the other was the
prerequisite of peace. In the East the Church became subordinate
to the state; in the West she fought for independence, then for
mastery. In either case the union of Church and state involved a profound modification of Christian ethics. Tertullian, Origen, and Lactantius [following the teachings of the Christ] had
taught that war is always unlawful; the Church, now protected by
the state, resigned herself to such wars as she deemed necessary to
protect either the state or the Church. She had not in herself
the means of force; but when force seemed desirable she could appeal to
the “secular arm” to implement her will. She received from the
state, and from individuals, splendid gifts of money, temples, or
lands; she grew rich, and needed the state to protect her in all the
rights of property. Even when the state fell she kept her wealth;
the barbarian conquerers, however heretical, seldom robbed the
Church. The authority of the word so soon rivaled the power of
the sword.II. THE HERETICS
The most unpleasant task of ecclesiastical organization was to prevent
a fragmentation of the Church through the multiplication of
heresies–i.e., doctrines contrary to conciliar definitions of the
Christian creed. Once triumphant, the Church ceased to preach
toleration; she looked with the same hostile eye upon individualism in
belief as the state upon secession or revolt. Neither the Church
nor the heretics thought of heresy in purely theological terms.
The heresy was in many cases the ideological flag of a rebellious
locality seeking liberation from the imperial power; so the
Monophysites wished to free Syria and Egypt from Constantinople; the
Donatists hoped to free Africa from Rome; and as Church and state were
now united, the rebellion was against both. Orthodoxy opposed
nationalism, heresy defended it; the Church labored for centralization
and unity, the heretics for local independence and liberty.…
(ellipsis)
We cannot
interest ourselves today in the many winds of doctrine that agitated
the Church in this period–Eunomians, Anomeans, Apollinarians,
Macedonians, Sabellians, Massalians, Novatians, Priscillianists; we can
only mourn over the absurdities for which men have died, and
will. Manicheanism was not so much a Christian heresy as a
Persian dualism of God and Satan, Good and Evil, Light and Darkness; it
thought to reconcile Christianity and Zoroastrianism, and was bitterly
buffeted by both. It faced withunusual candor the problem of
evil, the strnage abundance of apparently unmerited suffering in a
world providentially ruled; and felt compelled to postulate an Evil
Spirit coeternal with the Good. During the fourth century
Manicheism mad many converts in East and West. Several of the
emperors use ruthless measures against it; Justinian made it a capital
crime; gradually it faded out, but it left its influence on such later
heretics as the Paulicians, Bogomiles, and Albigensians. In 385,
a Spanish bishop, Priscillian, was accused of preaching Manicheism and
universal celibacy; he denied the charges; he was tried before the
usurping Emperor Maximus at Trier, two bishops being his accusers; he
was condemned; and over the protests of St. Ambrose and St. Martin he
and several of his companions were burned to death. (385).I tire of this transcription
process, although I’ll never grow weary of the subject. I did
have a bit more copy-and-paste, some excerpts of letters from “Saint”
Jerome, illustrating my contention that he was a dirty old dog in the
manger, but my browser crashed and I lost it (so glad I’d saved the
rest already), and I think I’ve already made this so long I doubt
anyone will read it.
Comments (13)
The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the
world
ugly and bad.
—Friedrich Nietzsche
Wow. There is a lot to absorb here, but from this reading of it I am very interested. Strange to think that the sex problem can be traced back to an interpetation, coloured by intolerance of pagan ways, of the misogynystic Paul’s text… scary, too.
I have seen more butts in China than I have ever before seen in my life. *nods* I’m not nearly as impressed with them as one of my comrades who has taken several live videos of cows peeing, simply because he cannot believe the sheer volume. It’s an interesting world.
I shall try to keep my blog alive this summer. I’m not depressed anymore which will help. *laughs*
Well, I read it. It took forever, too, because I followed the link and got lost in the WSU site…what an amazing wealth of information from a viewpoint of unbiased history rather than the Us vs. Them mentality of the Christian church today!
VERY timely, too. I’ve got a woman emailing me with things like “inerrant Word of God” and quoting our buddy Paul/Saul as to what we should be doing and how right and true it is that the scriptures are divine. I’ve been searching for a solid history foundation to back up my argument (aside, of course, from the fact that of the seven quotes she sent me only *one* came from the mouth of Jesus Himself – and don’t think that’s going unmentioned) and now I have it.
THANK YOU!
Long, very interesting, long. I think women have received a bum rap from the beginning. Men have never been able to handle our intelligence and because we weren’t as physically strong, them made sure of keeping us in “our place”. Fools for the most part.
Okay, I pretty much gave up at the spittng into the wind part. I already knew that Christianity is irretrievably fucked up, but just rading Augustine referred to as a miscreant made the whole thing more than worthwhile.
On the sexism issue, I was tought that it goes back to pre-history. I mean, back then, when any normal person bled, they tended to die. And here are these weird soft men, bleeding every damn month, and not dying. And as if that weren’t bad enough–every so often–for NO apparent reason–they would swell up and this small person would come out. No wonder men hated and feared them.
Then there’s the circumcision issue.
…well well, I’m hurt
I asked you to blog on religion a year ago and you wouldn’t. 
I definitely like that Palegius dude…and have long, long believed that Yeshua’s message has been bastardized by the church. I also don’t believe that most of the “quotes” of Jesus, [same same], bear much resemblance to his real words. Again, just more man-made crap. Legends and parables, just as any “religion” or culture have used to explain the unexplainable since the beginning of time….I don’t like St Paul…not one bit.
As a slightly different slant, I don’t believe that Jesus suffered on the cross either. That is not to say that I don’t believe that he was executed, I do. But I don’t believe that he felt pain or that he suffered [this, from recently reading an article on “The Passion of The Christ,” because he “got it”…he knew that we aren’t bodies….and had no guilt. I’m fairly convinced that without guilt, there can be no pain. I think he and Mary Magdalene were “married” too but that’s a whole ‘nother ball game……..THIS was an excellent post!! Now off to follow some links

*low maniacal chuckling* So basically, we women are just so damn sexy that we MUST be evil. The part of my mind that is flattered by this notion is the “lead” that I’m trying to purify in my experiments. WHOO…and all that talk of bondage and flagellation is makin’ me horny.
Historians exercise great power and some of them know it. They recreate the past, changing it to fit their own interpretations. Thus, they change the future as well.
-Tandis
I read it, and thanks for posting it all.
I’m glad I worship Pan and the Green Man.
A little in the deep end today…
Wow this is fantastic. I actually printed this out so I can sit and reread it. I find that for me I am really starting to need to know the history of things. Right now I am immersed in the history of Islam and Sufism, just so I know. When I get asked to come speak to others about my faith or lead some practice, part of me feels a bit like a poser because i don’t always know where what I am talking about comes from. In about a month I am going to go to a Catholic youth group and they are going to talk to me about being Muslim and really knowing where I am coming from seems to be making it a bit less scary. Ok the kids are in junior high so it is still scary… Excellent blog though!
Well I didn’t read it right away, but as soon as I saw it I intended to come back!
I didn’t know much of this until recently, but I avoided the church for many years. I guess you could say I was an apathetic agnostic
. I never did like my parents church, and tho I went to many others to try them, they all felt wrong. But I never knew why, and I would never have dared question anything about Christianity – I was surrounded by it, although no one I knew really had Faith – they just did what they should. I kept trying to fit into this box of propriety , even allowed myself to be married in a Church I didn’t believe in. The only real reason was the Priest was a cool dude – an ex street-biker from North Main in Winnipeg – he spoke of spiritual philosophy, not religion. I could live with that. And he made my husband promise to bring our kids up in the religion, not me, so I was off the hook! (and DH is a good liar!)
I’ve read some of what you speak. I’m more interested in the history than I could ever be in the bible, for exactly the reasons you have pointed out! I don’t like reading hearsay posing as fact. Although I’m quite happy with fiction – I love to be entertained.
I can’t concentrate terribly long reading historical texts, but I will willingly spend time reading through the Sourcebook. I had no idea such things were available! As usual, you’re helping me find what I need…. and often it seems like it’s just when I need it
Thankyou 