May 24, 2004

  • More Heresy


    My feelings about history are
    love/hate.  I’m very much interested in what went on in the
    past.  History does not always record that.  Histories are
    written by the victors in wars or by scholars under the patronage of
    rich and powerful men.  Another subject that has always interested
    me is religion.  It used to astound me how little knowledge
    Christians (adherents of the only religion with which I had any contact
    during my youth) had of the history of their religion.  I was
    naive then, thinking that everyone was like me.  Now Greyfox has helped me to see and understand just
    how little the average person knows, or wants to know, about anything.

    I have always wanted to know… anything, everything, whatever.  I
    have come to value my associations with others who likewise want to
    know.  I learn from them, and I try to pass along some of what
    I’ve learned elsewhere to them.  This is part of such an effort,
    and was instigated by krisinluck
    I made a start on it a few days ago, and when I realized what a big job
    it would be, I allowed myself to go off on a personal tangent and put
    off the big task.  I would not feel right about
    putting this off any longer, but it’s a
    chore.  Reading it may be a chore as well.  This will be long
    and information-dense.  Most of this blog will be transcription,
    not simply
    keyboarding to record my own thoughts.  The mechanical aspect of
    this is laborious to me. 

    I spent a couple of days searching the
    web, hoping to find some suitable texts I could copy and paste
    here.  I found translations of some original sources at Fordham
    University’s Internet Medieval Sourcebook
    However, the translations are often stilted and obscure, and extracting
    the points I wish to make from original sources is another laborious
    chore.  I mention the sourcebook for those scholars who wish to
    consult primary sources. 

    To make my point and fulfill my
    commitment to say more about the arguments between Pelagius (and other first millennium heretics) and the
    fathers of Monasticism and modern Christianity, I find it simpler to quote secondary sources
    (the works of historians) and, first of all, a summation of the
    case from a (well-researched) work of fiction.  The passage begins
    with a Roman legate just returned to Britain from Rome, speaking to his uncle:

        “…Are you familiar with Augustine, the Bishop of Hippo?”
        Again, I felt a sense of things of import crossing
    my horizons.  I shook my head.  “No, not at all.  Tell
    me about him, too.”
        “Well,” he went on, with a barely discernible
    hesitation that was emphasized by its briefness, “Augustine is one of
    the most respected scholars of the Church.  A very wise and
    learned man and a famed interpreter of the Word of God.”
        “Oh!  One of those.  That sounds ominous.  Go on.”
        “Augustine, whom most men call a saintly man, has
    come into conflict with Pelagius–or, rather, it’s the other way
    around.  Pelagius has locked horns with Augustine.”
        “So?  What’s the problem of the saintly Augustine?”
        “Pelagius thinks he is a hypocrite and a liar.”
        I whistled to myself.  “Has he told him so?”
        “He has told the entire world.”
        “Why?  For what reasons?”  In spite of
    myself, in spite of the fact that I knew nothing of this Pelagius, I
    felt dismayed by this last statement of Picus’s.  “If, as you say,
    everyone thinks Augustine is a saintly man, your Pelagius runs a very
    real risk of being thought a madman, or a trouble-maker.”
        …”Quite so,” he said.  “But it is bigger than
    that.  Augustine is the champion of the theory of divine
    grace.  He is a man of God.  A bishop.  But in his youth
    he was a notorious womanizer….  Anyway, he has a prayer that has
    become notorious… that God would send him the grace to find
    chastity… but not yet!  …Augustine believes that man is
    incapable of finding or winning redemption without divine help. 
    He believes that man is born damned, in mortal sin.  Only baptism
    will wash away that sin, and only divine grace can enable man to stay
    away from sin thereafter.  He believes that all of life is a
    temptation and that man should spend his life in prayer, abandoning
    himself to God’s mercy in bestowing grace upon him.”
        I nodded.  “That, my young friend, is the view
    one tends to get from an ecclesia.  That is what all the priests
    say.  There’s nothing new in what you’ve told me, except the
    saintly bishop’s own example….  And you say Pelagius finds fault
    with this?”  He nodded.  “How?”
        “Totally.  Pelagius believes that the entire
    concept of grace is a man-made device invented by the Church to keep
    all men in bondage.”
        “Hah!  Come on now, your friend Pelagius is
    beginning to sound like one of those old women who sees a rapist behind
    every bush.  How can divine help keep men in bondage?”
        “It works by making men forget that they are made in
    the image of God Himself, and therefore able to determine between right
    and wrong.”
        I saw the flaw immediately.  “But that’s not possible.  Your man is
    mad!  Men have known the difference between right and wrong since
    Eve ate the apple.  The knowledge of good and evil.  Men have
    always known the difference.”
        “Exactly, Uncle.  That’s what Pelagius says….
    Pelagius argues that man, made in the image of God, knows the
    difference between good and evil, and has the ability to choose between
    them, and has always done so, even before the time of the Christ. 
    Even barbarians have their moral laws, unwritten though they may
    be.  Pelagius sees this divine grace as an instrument of men,
    designed to keep all other men in subjugation and reliant on the Church
    as the only intermediary between God and man.  He sees Original
    Sin as an invention foisted upon men by other men to make all men
    guilty at birth, and therefore incapable of freedom of choice from the
    outset….
        “It comes down all the way to personal
    responsibility.  Carried to its logical conclusion, the concept of
    divine grace destroys the basis of law.  …in the absence of
    grace the fault for crime can be laid right at God’s door.
        “…Pelagius believes, as the Scripture tells us,
    that God made man in his own image.  If man has the attributes of
    God, he says, then man must have free will.  The majority of men
    know that society demands certain rules for the governance of property,
    sanity, decency and dignity.  Those rules constitute the
    law.  Pelagius maintains that a man–any man–born with the divine
    spark is free to choose between good and evil as defined by both Church
    and society.  If he chooses to go against the law, be it divine or
    human, that choice is his own and he has to be prepared to accept the
    responsibility for his choice in the eyes of God and in the eyes of his
    fellow men.”
        “It takes a lot of nerve to go against the
    Church.  I’d never heard of this fellow Pelagius before this
    morning, but he makes sense to me, too.  How far has this argument
    between them gone?”
        “A long way.  It’s the talk of Rome.”
        “Sound’s like it might become the talk of all the world.  And you say this bishop is powerful?”
        “Extremely.  He has powerful friends, great influence.  Some say he should be Pope.”
        “Sounds like your friend Pelagius is spitting into
    the wind.  Will they reach an agreement?  Some kind of
    compromise?”
        “How can they?  They’re like day and night.”
        “Aye, and darkness is falling quickly, it would
    seem.  Does Pelagius have any support within the Church?  Or
    is everyone convinced he is possessed by evil spirits?”
        “He has support.  In plenty.  Many of the most powerful espouse his cause.”
        “How many? In terms of odds, I mean.  Is there an even match?”
        “Perhaps.  There could be.  If we were
    dealing only in numbers…. The question here is one of basic
    policy.  An army mutineer may have some right on his side in terms
    of the conditions that drove him to mutiny.  But he has to die for
    his mutiny, no matter how laudable his cause might have been, no matter
    how understandable and sympthetic his motives.  Mutiny cannot be
    condoned, no matter what the justification.  To condone one
    instance of mutiny would be to invite, and to incite, the eventual and
    inevitable destruction of all the armies.  So it is with
    Pelagius.  He has to lose, or overthrow five hundred years of a
    Church established by the Christ Himself, with all its rules and
    methods.  Pelagius knows this, Publius, he is not a stupid
    man.  He is not challenging the Christ’s Church but men’s
    corruption of it, yet he knows he is too late to alter what others,
    stronger than he, have been building for centuries with a view to
    making it eternal.  You see, Pelagius’s doctrine, if you want to
    call it that, destroys the need for a Church just as surely as
    Augustine’s doctrine destroys the need for the law.  Pelagius is
    saying that every man carries the Church within his heart, and that he
    can commune directly with God by simply meditating!  Augustine is
    saying that man is absolutely nothing without the Christian Church,
    which has as its symbol the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven.  The
    Church already speaks for God.  Pelagius speaks for man. 
    Therefore, Pelagius must be defeated in this struggle.”

    The Singing Sword
    by Jack Whyte
    I perceive a belief in such a “grace” to
    be what the psychological field calls, “magical thinking.”  I
    encounter a form of this type of thinking in the, “suit up, show up,
    get a sponsor, work the steps,” party line in 12-step groups.  It
    neglects to mention the most important aspect of recovery from
    addiction:  abstinence, which is the personal responsibility of
    the addict.  I have watched, in the past year, more than a few
    people come in, hear that message, swallow it, and try to make the
    magic work for them but end up relapsing and not understanding why,
    feeling that God has rejected or abandoned them because He did not give
    them his grace.  But that is just one little personal
    illustration of the concept, and the idea is much larger and more
    pervasive in our culture than this one instance I’ve given. 

    The heresies suppressed by the Church in the Middle Ages were a lot
    more numerous than just those of Pelagius, and “Saint” Augustine was
    not the only miscreant who distorted, corrupted and perverted the
    teachings of Joshua ben Joseph, the Christ, for his political
    aims.  I mentioned “Saint” Jerome in my previous heresy blog, and the
    granddaddy of them all, Saul of Tarsus, the Apostle Paul.  Paul apparently
    hated and feared women, and his influence can be seen in Augustine’s
    writings.  Paul also made an impression on “Saint” Ambrose, who
    lived in the latter half of the fourth century.  His father had
    been the Roman Prefect of Gaul.  I’ll take the easy route now, and
    copy-and-paste some of the words of historian Richard Hooker, before I go back to transcribing from my library:

    One of Ambrose’s most significant legacies to the Middle
    Ages and the medieval church was his fierce hatred of women. Like many
    other bishops, he felt several pressures urging the church to gender
    equality. On the one hand were communities of virgin nuns who were held
    up as the highest exemplars of spiritual life; on the other hand, the
    Gnostic religions, including Gnostic Christian religions, accorded
    women something approaching gender equality. Yet still there was Paul
    of Tarsus, who claimed that women shouldn’t speak on matters of
    doctrine. So Ambrose concluded that church offices, ie, the priesthood,
    should be completely closed off to women. It wasn’t enough to assert
    this; Ambrose had to prove why women were insufficient to occupy
    priestly offices.

       He argued that women were fundamentally flawed, especially
    in the area of sexual control. He believed that women were destined,
    through their sexuality, to always tempt men as Eve had tempted Adam.
    This was not the fault of men but rather the fault of women’s lack of
    sexual control. In many ways, Ambrose’s exclusion of women from church
    office reflected the Roman exclusion of women from offices. Ambrose,
    however, introduced a radically new element to Roman misogyny—he linked
    female inferiority to female sexuality. It was female sexuality that
    was the threat and the fundamental flaw of women; this was the logic
    that explained such paradoxical views as holding up virgin nuns as
    being the highest examples of spirituality while at the same time
    denying women any official role in the church. One cannot overestimate
    the influence of Ambrose’s linking of misogyny with female sexuality—it
    is the single most dominant aspect of gender relations from Ambrose to
    our time.

       Perhaps more disastrous was Ambrose’s religious
    intolerance and his legitimation of this intolerance. Throughout the
    early years of Christianity, the religion lived alongside a multitude
    of other religions. On the one hand was Roman and Greek paganism, the
    official religion of the empire; on the other hand were a multitude of
    other religions, from ethnic religions such as Judaism to mystery
    religions such as Gnosticism and Mithraism. Not only did Christians
    live side by side with these religions, but they often crossed over and
    sometimes incorporated elements of these other religions into their own.

       When the Emperor Gratian (375-383) signalled that the
    state religion would not be paganism by removing the statue of Victory
    from the Roman Senate, Ambrose formulated an argument that if were Rome
    were a Christian empire, no other religion, including paganism, could
    be tolerated. In his debate in the Roman Senate with Ambrose, the pagan
    Symmachus argue eloquently for religious tolerance, but Ambrose argued
    that there was one and only one correct religion and all others should
    be stamped out.

       This position soon became the church’s position and had
    two far-reaching consequences. From the fourth century onwards, one of
    the principal characteristics of Christianity was its intolerance—in
    fact, often extremely homicidal intolerance—of other religions. For
    Rome, however, this religious intolerance was one of the central
    reasons for the disintegration of the Roman Empire. In many ways, the
    Roman Empire held together because of its religious tolerance. Subject
    states did not enjoy being under the empire, but the cultural and
    religious freedom that they had at least made it bearable. When the
    Christian Empire began to suppress native religions, areas under Roman
    control soon rebelled. These rebellions fractured the empire in pieces
    at a point in time when migrating Europeans were invading the frontiers.

    Monasticism
            The triumph of the church resulted in
    problematic changes to the church. Ambrose, as noted above, began a
    trend of reconceiving clerical office as something more along the lines
    of secular offices. The Roman concern with practical administration
    drained much of the spiritual mission of the early church. The
    Patristic writings departed significantly from the spirituality of the
    earliest Christian texts; in the place of faith and insight they
    offered only rationality and arguments. This secularization of the
    clergy and the church as well as the rationalization of Christian
    discourse led to the growth of a new Christian phenomenon, monasticism.

       The earliest monks were not clergy, but ordinary
    individuals who fled the poverty of the church to live spiritually
    dedicated lives while suffering extreme poverty and self-affliction.
    Seeing the church as too worldly and too materialistic, they lived
    solitary lives of severe ascetism, or “world denial.” This form of
    monasticism in which an individual ascetic lives alone is called
    eremetic monasticism, that is, the monasticism of a hermit.

       Monasticism first appeared in the eastern reaches of
    Christianity in the third century when the Roman Empire seemed to be
    falling apart; in this sense, monasticism was related to the anxiety
    and uncertainty of the age. It did not really spread, however, until
    after the conversion of Constantine and the realignment of the church
    along more material and political lines. At that point, the practice
    spread throughout the east to Egypt and North Africa. The extreme forms
    of eremeticism are legendary; these ascetic monks soon were sought out
    by Christians who literally worshipped them and the various material
    that came in contact with them—or came out of them.

       In the fourth century, monasticism soon adopted a communal
    form. Again, monks were not clergy but rather laymen that came together
    in a community to remove themselves from the world. This form of
    monasticism, called cenobitic monasticism, was most successfully
    implemented by Basil (330-379), who, after a time as a hermit monk,
    came out from the wilderness to found a community of other monks.

       The most essential difference between the communal
    monasticism of Basil and the eremetic monasticism practiced before was
    the nature of self-discipline and rejection of the world. The eremetic
    monks would discipline themselves to reject the world by engaging in
    self-torture, sometimes bordering on the psychotic. Basil, however,
    believed that one could discipline one’s body and will as well as
    reject the world through constant labor rather than self-torture. So
    the community of monks he set up engaged in constant physical and
    spiritual labor; this would become the pattern for both Western and
    Eastern monasticism.

     Now, I think it’s obvious that where Saul of Tarsus,
    Ambrose, and their ilk erred was in ignorance.  They did not know,
    and if they had been told they would have rejected the idea, that like
    other animals humans are subject to hormones, pheromones and other
    neurochemicals.  The chemistry of sex is not all that different
    from the chemistry of addiction.  Oh, some of the chemicals are
    different (dopamine is one that is the same), but their profound effect
    on the minds in the bodies those chemicals are controlling are
    practically identical.  Just as the founders of Alcoholics
    Anonymous eighty-some years ago and the founders of Narcotics Anonymous
    fifty years ago didn’t know about the neurochemistry of addiction, the
    early Church Fathers knew nothing of the neurochemistry of sex. 

    They saw women in thrall to their natural reproductive urges using
    every wile at their disposal to attract men to father children for them
    and to hold them there to support those families they produced. 
    They themselves felt the effects of the women’s pheromones on their own
    hormones, and they blamed the women.  Of course… who else were
    they going to blame, God?  Not hardly!  He was the Big Guy,
    and you know you don’t go picking on the Big Guy when there’s a little
    person around you can pick on.  The same dynamic goes on today in
    households where men bring home their frustrations with the government
    or their employers, and release them in domestic violence against their
    wives and children.

    Now, from Will Durant’s The Story of Civilization, Volume 4, The Age of Faith:

    CHAPTER III The Progress of Christianity 364-451

    THE foster mother of the new civilization was the Church. As the old
    order faded away in corruption, cowardice, and neglect, a unique army
    of churchmen rose to defend with energy and skill a regenerated
    stability and decency of life. The historic function of Christianity
    was to re-establish the moral basis of character and society by
    providing supernatural sanctions and support for the uncongenial
    commandments of social order; to instill into rude barbarians gentler
    ideals of conduct through a creed spontaneously compounded of myth and
    miracle, of fear and hope and love. There is an epic grandeur, sullied
    with superstition and cruelty, in the struggle of the new religion to
    capture, tame, and inspire the minds of brute or decadent men, to forge
    a uniting empire of faith that would again hold men together, as they
    had once been held by the magic of Greece or the majesty of Rome.
    Institutions and beliefs are the offspring of human needs, and
    understanding must be in terms of these necessities.

    I. THE ORGANIZATION OF THE CHURCH

    If art is the organization of materials, the Roman Catholic Church is
    among the most imposing masterpieces of history. Through nineteen
    centuries, each heavy with crisis, she has held her faithful together,
    following them with her ministrations to the ends of the earth, forming
    their minds, molding their morals, encouraging their fertility,
    solemnizing their marriages, consoling their bereavements, lifting
    their momentary lives into eternal drama, harvesting their gifts,
    surviving every heresy and revolt, and patiently building again every
    broken support of her power. How did this majestic institution grow?

    It began in the spiritual hunger of men and women harassed with
    poverty, wearied with conflict, awed by mystery, or fearful of death.
    To millions of souls the Church brought a faith and hope that inspired
    and canceled death. That faith became their most precious possession,
    for which they would die or kill; and on that rock of hope the Church
    was built. It was at first a simple association of believers, an ecclesia or gathering. Each ecclesia or church chose one or more presbyteroi–elders,
    priests–to lead them, and one or more readers, acolytes, subdeacons,
    and deacons to assist the priest. As the worshipers grew in number, and
    their affairs became more complex, the congregations chose a priest or
    layman in each city to be an episcopos–overseer,
    bishop–to coordinate their functioning.  As the number of bishops
    grew, they in turn required supervision and coordination; in the fourth
    century we hear of archbishops, metropolitans, or primates governing
    the bishops and the churches of a province.  Over all these grades
    of clergy patriarchs held sway at Constantinople, Antioch, Jerusalem,
    Alexandria, and Rome.  At the call of a patriarch or an emperor
    the bishops and archbishops convened in synods or councils.  If a
    council represented only a province it was called provincial; if it
    represented; if it represented only the East or the West it was called
    plenary; if both, it was general;  if its decrees were accepted as
    binding upon all Christians, it was ecumenical–i.e., applying to the oikoumene,
    or (total Christian) inhabited world.  The occasionally resultant
    unity gave the Church its name of Catholic, or universal.

    This organization, whose power rested at
    last upon belief and prestige, required some regulation of the
    ecclestical life.  In the first three centuries of Christianity,
    celibacy was not required of a priest.  He might keep a wife whom
    he had married before ordiantion, but he must not marry after taking
    holy orders; and no man could be ordained who had married two wives, or
    a widow, a divorcee, or a concubine.  Like most societies, the
    Church was harassed with expremists.  In reaction against the
    sexual license of pagan morals, some Christian enthusiasts concluded
    from a passage in St. Paul (I Cor. VII, 32), that any commerce between
    the sexes was sinful;  they denounced all marriage, and trembled at the abomination of a married priest.  The provincial council of Gengra (circa 362) condemned these views as heretical,
    [emphasis added] but the Church increasingly demanded celibacy in her
    priests..  Property was being left in rising amounts to individual
    churches; now and then a married priest had the bequest written in his
    name and transmitted it to his children.  Clerical marriage
    sometimes led to adultery or other scandal, and lowered the respect of
    the people for the priest.  A Roman synod of 386 advised the
    complet continence of the clergy; and a year later Pope Siricius
    ordered the unfrocking of any priest who married, or continued to live
    with his wife.  Jerome, Ambrose,
    and Augustine supported this decree with their triple power; and after
    a generation of sporadic resistance it was enforced with transient
    success in the West.
    [more added emphasis]

    The gravest problem of the Chruch, next to reconciling her ideals with her continuance,
    [yeah, this is me again calling your attention to a select portion of
    Durant's text--just assume that any boldface type is my doing and all
    within brackets is my addition, okay?] was to find a way of living with
    the state.  The rise of an ecclesiastical organization side by
    side with the officials of the government created a struggle for power
    in which the accepted subjection of one to the other was the
    prerequisite of peace.  In the East the Church became subordinate
    to the state; in the West she fought for independence, then for
    mastery.  In either case the union of Church and state involved a profound modification of Christian ethics.  Tertullian, Origen, and Lactantius [following the teachings of the Christ] had
    taught that war is always unlawful;  the Church, now protected by
    the state, resigned herself to such wars as she deemed necessary to
    protect either the state or the Church.  She had not in herself
    the means of force; but when force seemed desirable she could appeal to
    the “secular arm” to implement her will.  She received from the
    state, and from individuals, splendid gifts of money, temples, or
    lands; she grew rich, and needed the state to protect her in all the
    rights of property.  Even when the state fell she kept her wealth;
    the barbarian conquerers, however heretical, seldom robbed the
    Church.  The authority of the word so soon rivaled the power of
    the sword.

    II. THE HERETICS
    The most unpleasant task of ecclesiastical organization was to prevent
    a fragmentation of the Church through the multiplication of
    heresies–i.e., doctrines contrary to conciliar definitions of the
    Christian creed.  Once triumphant, the Church ceased to preach
    toleration; she looked with the same hostile eye upon individualism in
    belief as the state upon secession or revolt.  Neither the Church
    nor the heretics thought of heresy in purely theological terms. 
    The heresy was in many cases the ideological flag of a rebellious
    locality seeking liberation from the imperial power;  so the
    Monophysites wished to free Syria and Egypt from Constantinople; the
    Donatists hoped to free Africa from Rome; and as Church and state were
    now united, the rebellion was against both.  Orthodoxy opposed
    nationalism, heresy defended it; the Church labored for centralization
    and unity, the heretics for local independence and liberty.

    (ellipsis)

    We cannot
    interest ourselves today in the many winds of doctrine that agitated
    the Church in this period–Eunomians, Anomeans, Apollinarians,
    Macedonians, Sabellians, Massalians, Novatians, Priscillianists; we can
    only mourn over the absurdities for which men have died, and
    will.  Manicheanism was not so much a Christian heresy as a
    Persian dualism of God and Satan, Good and Evil, Light and Darkness; it
    thought to reconcile Christianity and Zoroastrianism, and was bitterly
    buffeted by both.  It faced withunusual candor the problem of
    evil, the strnage abundance of apparently unmerited suffering in a
    world providentially ruled; and felt compelled to postulate an Evil
    Spirit coeternal with the Good.  During the fourth century
    Manicheism mad many converts in East and West.  Several of the
    emperors use ruthless measures against it; Justinian made it a capital
    crime; gradually it faded out, but it left its influence on such later
    heretics as the Paulicians, Bogomiles, and Albigensians.  In 385,
    a Spanish bishop, Priscillian, was accused of preaching Manicheism and
    universal celibacy; he denied the charges; he was tried before the
    usurping Emperor Maximus at Trier, two bishops being his accusers; he
    was condemned; and over the protests of St. Ambrose and St. Martin he
    and several of his companions were burned to death. (385).

    I tire of this transcription
    process, although I’ll never grow weary of the subject.  I did
    have a bit more copy-and-paste, some excerpts of letters from “Saint”
    Jerome, illustrating my contention that he was a dirty old dog in the
    manger, but my browser crashed and I lost it (so glad I’d saved the
    rest already), and I think I’ve already made this so long I doubt
    anyone will read it.

Comments (13)

  • The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the
    world
    ugly and bad.
    —Friedrich Nietzsche

  • Wow. There is a lot to absorb here, but from this reading of it I am very interested. Strange to think that the sex problem can be traced back to an interpetation, coloured by intolerance of pagan ways, of the misogynystic Paul’s text… scary, too.

  • I have seen more butts in China than I have ever before seen in my life. *nods* I’m not nearly as impressed with them as one of my comrades who has taken several live videos of cows peeing, simply because he cannot believe the sheer volume. It’s an interesting world.

    I shall try to keep my blog alive this summer. I’m not depressed anymore which will help. *laughs*

  • Well, I read it.  It took forever, too, because I followed the link and got lost in the WSU site…what an amazing wealth of information from a viewpoint of unbiased history rather than the Us vs. Them mentality of the Christian church today!

    VERY timely, too.  I’ve got a woman emailing me with things like “inerrant Word of God” and quoting our buddy Paul/Saul as to what we should be doing and how right and true it is that the scriptures are divine.  I’ve been searching for a solid history foundation to back up my argument (aside, of course, from the fact that of the seven quotes she sent me only *one* came from the mouth of Jesus Himself – and don’t think that’s going unmentioned) and now I have it.

    THANK YOU!

  • Long, very interesting, long.  I think women have received a bum rap from the beginning.  Men have never been able to handle our intelligence and because we weren’t as physically strong, them made sure of keeping us in “our place”.  Fools for the most part.

  • Okay, I pretty much gave up at the spittng into the wind part. I already knew that Christianity is irretrievably fucked up, but just rading Augustine referred to as a miscreant made the whole thing more than worthwhile.
    On the sexism issue, I was tought that it goes back to pre-history. I mean, back then, when any normal person bled, they tended to die. And here are these weird soft men, bleeding every damn month, and not dying. And as if that weren’t bad enough–every so often–for NO apparent reason–they would swell up and this small person would come out. No wonder men hated and feared them.
    Then there’s the circumcision issue.

  • …well well, I’m hurt   I asked you to blog on religion a year ago and you wouldn’t. 

    I definitely like that Palegius dude…and have long, long believed that Yeshua’s message has been bastardized by the church. I also don’t believe that most of the “quotes” of Jesus, [same same], bear much resemblance to his real words.  Again, just more man-made crap. Legends and parables, just as any “religion” or culture have used to explain the unexplainable since the beginning of time….I don’t like St Paul…not one bit.

    As a slightly different slant, I don’t believe that Jesus suffered on the cross either.  That is not to say that I don’t believe that he was executed, I do.  But I don’t believe that he felt pain or that he suffered [this, from recently reading an article on “The Passion of The Christ,” because he “got it”…he knew that we aren’t bodies….and had no guilt. I’m fairly convinced that without guilt, there can be no pain.  I think he and Mary Magdalene were “married” too but that’s a whole ‘nother ball game……..THIS was an excellent post!!  Now off to follow some links  

  • *low maniacal chuckling* So basically, we women are just so damn sexy that we MUST be evil. The part of my mind that is flattered by this notion is the “lead” that I’m trying to purify in my experiments. WHOO…and all that talk of bondage and flagellation is makin’ me horny.

  • Historians exercise great power and some of them know it. They recreate the past, changing it to fit their own interpretations. Thus, they change the future as well.
    -Tandis

  • I read it, and thanks for posting it all.

    I’m glad I worship Pan and the Green Man. 

  • A little in the deep end today…

  • Wow this is fantastic. I actually printed this out so I can sit and reread it. I find that for me I am really starting to need to know the history of things. Right now I am immersed in the history of Islam and Sufism, just so I know. When I get asked to come speak to others about my faith or lead some practice, part of me feels a bit like a poser because i don’t always know where what I am talking about comes from. In about a month I am going to go to a Catholic youth group and they are going to talk to me about being Muslim and really knowing where I am coming from seems to be making it a bit less scary. Ok the kids are in junior high so it is still scary…  Excellent blog though!

  • Well I didn’t read it right away, but as soon as I saw it I intended to come back!

    I didn’t know much of this until recently, but I avoided the church for many years. I guess you could say I was an apathetic agnostic . I never did like my parents church, and tho I went to many others to try them, they all felt wrong. But I never knew why, and I would never have dared question anything about Christianity – I was surrounded by it, although no one I knew really had Faith – they just did what they should. I kept trying to fit into this box of propriety , even allowed myself to be married in a Church I didn’t believe in. The only real reason was the Priest was a cool dude – an ex street-biker from North Main in Winnipeg – he spoke of spiritual philosophy, not religion. I could live with that. And he made my husband promise to bring our kids up in the religion, not me, so I was off the hook! (and DH is a good liar!)

    I’ve read some of what you speak. I’m more interested in the history than I could ever be in the bible, for exactly the reasons you have pointed out! I don’t like reading hearsay posing as fact. Although I’m quite happy with fiction – I love to be entertained.

    I can’t concentrate terribly long reading historical texts, but I will willingly spend time reading through the Sourcebook. I had no idea such things were available! As usual, you’re helping me find what I need…. and often it seems like it’s just when I need it Thankyou

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