August 19, 2008

  • the difference between denial and deception

    I’ve had an issue for quite a while with someone I know.  She plays the lady role, wears a sweet mask, and for a long time I thought she was in denial about her shadow side, unaware of the viciousness of her temper and the magnitude of the hatred she sometimes projects.

    I have been paying closer attention to her lately, and also going back over our past interactions, and I think I was mistaken about the denial.  It seems more likely to me now, that she is a chronic liar and hater, not so much in denial as putting conscious effort into concealing her real feelings.

    I realize that I have no control over her situation in either case, and it is of interest to me primarily because I had always been baffled by some of her behavior, but now with that new insight it makes a lot more sense.

    Depending on one’s mindset, lying can be viewed as either evil, or normal, or sick.  I have been told that everyone lies.  I don’t believe that, but I also don’t think that lying is an uncommon thing.  To whatever extent it can have destructive consequences, I suppose it qualifies as “evil,” but mostly, I consider chronic deceptiveness to be pathological, sick.

    The question I asked myself today was whether it is sicker to be in denial, to be deluded about one’s own feelings, or to understand oneself and hide the truth from others.  I’m undecided on that, and not even sure it’s a valid question.  Trying to rank psychopathology might be a completely futile pursuit, nuttiness in the first degree.

Comments (14)

  • I think when you are in true touch with you present self you recognize you faults and strive to be a better person I also think that by hiding your true self you are not in touch with your self so much as you desire to recieve acceptance from others and are afraid that if you let your true self be seen that it will be found lacking…rather then accept that you might not be everyones cup of tea…I also think when you practice deception and denial you are not seeking your higher self

  • My dad is a pathological liar.  He lies about everything… even things of no consequence.  They are not lies to hurt others, but to bolster himself.  I think he’s suffered from low self esteem his entire life and he thinks he needs to lie about everything to make people like him… when the truth is that people would like him just fine without the lies. 

    He lies so much, I don’t think he even realizes he does it.  Everyone else does, of course. 

  • it seems to me that hiding the truth from others takes more effort that hiding it from ourselves. we know where we will be unwilling to look for truth but cannot ever be too sure about others…

  • @fairydragonstar - @warweasel - @FlashFosgitt -

    Since writing this, and reading comments, now I wonder if she has convinced herself that she’s fooling everyone else.

  • I’m going to copy and paste what I sent someone in an email. It’s related to etiquette, after they told me that I should learn some manners:

    “To me, the term “manners” simply connotes being respectful to the other person. Email is a very ‘flat’ form of communication in that it lacks body language, physical presence and vocal intonation. If you and I were to read the same email, we could get very different vibes from it. Infact, those vibes could warp the original sentiment entirely. For example, perhaps you thought it to be a passive-aggressive attack when I said, “[sensitive info. deleted]” Maybe you thought I was blaming you for that, because you were sick and I hadn’t been able to get anything done. Such misinterpretations are common.
     
    Alternately, if by manners you mean ‘please’ and ‘thankyou’, I try not to overuse those terms. Etiquette is more about social cohesion and custom than sincerity, so frankly, I don’t give it much credence. I’ve never been one to adhere too closely to sociocultural norms. But know that I respect you as a person and I do appreciate your assistance, even if I don’t always verbalize that appreciation. :)  If you’d like me to express when I genuinely appreciate your assistance via. the old standard (‘please’ and ‘thankyou’), then I’ll do that for you.”

    She’s being paid for that assistance mentioned, which was a quick question. But in her career, she seems to get something fulfilling out of a polite show of respect.

    And I wonder: do other people actually get a kick out of your Alaskan lady’s “sweet mask” and her bullshit etiquette? Or do they see right through it? Her “hidden” vitriolic nature might say something about the environment in which she grew up. It’s probably hurting her more than it’s hurting anyone else.

    Growing up, I never lied. I was also far too compassionate and empathetic; almost Ghandi or Mother Teresa style. For example: I hadn’t eaten for a day or two, and the prospect of eating regularly didn’t seem in sight, I had no income, yet I often gave what little money I had away to people who didn’t really even need it. It was ridiculous.

    My ethical system changed, and my behaviour changed to fit in with the world around me. Now I play my life like a chess game. I’ll sometimes lie (usually via. a distortion of the truth when I can get away with it) to get whatever I percieve as being the most favourable outcome, or for subtle forms of self-protection – fundamentally grounded in insecurity, I think. And I don’t feel guilt anymore. At all. It could just be because I don’t violate my own ethics.

    I wonder which category my behaviour falls under?

    The interesting thing is that most people I know are [supposed to be] operating under ethical systems which expressely forbid the kind of behaviour I’m inclined to exhibit these days, and yet they do these kind of things moreso than I do.

  • IMO, the deception is worse.  It means the person sees their faults, but doesn’t want to do anything to fix/change.

  • Deception can often be viewed in the light of someone compensating for their insecurity and vulnerability. I know that’s how I use it. 

    For example, a politician is insecure abotu whether or not he’ll win the election. He stretches the truth and makes a series of false promises to get into office.

    A pharmacutical company is worried that it won’t make as much money as it wants to bring in this year. It’s (the CEO’s and such) are feeling fundamentally insecure. Their concern is based on insecurity (“Will I have enough money?”). To compensate, they embark on a campaign of misleading doctors, who mislead their patients, which leads to widespread overdiagnosis and excessively using medication on the general population as the solution for a certain condition.

    You get the idea. It’s based on a desire for security. Solution? I’m not sure. Go Buddhist? lol. fear-based emotions are just how most people operate, myself included, *most* of the time.

  • Fear-based and love-based emotions are like two motivational forces. One feels good, the other not so much but both serve their purpose.

    Here’s where my theory comes in that both are good for us, according to selfish gene theory. Fear motivates us in defending our security, oppressing or coercing others, lying, cheating, stealing, or motivating us to consolidate our position can be conductive to the survival and proliferation of our genes. The problem is risk of getting caught and punished (and not just going to jail, there’s a social cost involved): these behaviours are disapproved of and stigmatized because they put the survival and proliferation of other people’s genes at a disadvantage in exchange for your own. It’s why Ghengis Khan was viewed as evil by some - he destroyed so many people’s lives and killed a lot of them, hugely reducing their evolutionary fitness, while benefiting his own. But I’m sure his sons weren’t complaining when he gave them harems composed of these men’s wives and daughters. Through putting others at a disadvantage, killing, conquering and oppressing because of his own fear-based sponsoring thoughts, he spread his genes throughout the world, he has a prolific number of descendents today, and I’m sure he lived a very comfortable life.  

    What’s good for us is usually good for our genes – although many drugs circumvent the hedonistic pleasure/reward system. But yeah, if you’re rich and can afford to be indulge in material luxury and wimmenz like Ghengis, it feels good, and it’s also good for again “the survival and proliferation of your genes”. Lots of babies, and lots of daddy’s power and material security to ensure they grow up with every advantage. Ghengis got all that because of his desire to control others and get power, which came from his own fear-based sponsoring thoughts. we have fear-based emotions as a motivator to do things which are good for our evolutionary fitness, which is usually good for us

    love is good for social cohesion, forming alliances (friends who’ll watch your back), mating, bonding etc. Group co-operation has been shown to work much, much better to improve everyone’s fitness than individuals doing their own thing, so it was selected for. That’s why everyone you meet isn’t a complete asshole

    environment can hugely influence how any of this is expressed. Buddhist monks certainly don’t benefit their genes too much, what with the abstinence, poverty etc.  but because of their non-attachment, meditative practice and refraining from bringing ego into the picture, they don’t really suffer or yearn. theyve tinkered with the brain’s motivational systems, in a way.  

  • i hope you are able to get away from her negative energy

  • @Apocatastasis - 

    “Group co-operation has been shown to work much, much better to improve everyone’s fitness than individuals doing their own thing, so it was selected for. That’s why everyone you meet isn’t a complete asshole”

    I should add here that our ability for co-operative behaviour (which we have due to selected-for traits like  empathy, compassion etc.) is also socially reinforced, as with many things.

    Much of these insecurity-based behaviours are stigmatized, and the way that virtually every moral code seems to incorporate co-operation, love or helping your fellow man helps to curb outright expressions of manipulation, murder, whatever else and ultimately benefits everyone as a whole. Behaving in that way often becomes even more potentially costly to an individual.

  • @SuSu - Maybe maybe not…some people lie  and do deceptive things purely for entertainment value. they purposely feed off the weak and seek constant sympathy…I sometimes don’t know what to think about people that do that…I think on some levels they are such good liars that they have lied to themselves but I think on other levels they know exactly what they are doing…I do believe it isn’t a simple answer…it is more complex…some of it I think is from being afraid people will actually find out the true you and not like what they find///and they very well might not like what they find…

  • I must say that I do lie on occasion. Usually it’s to spare someones feelings or like for my honey’s birthday party I had to say all of our friends were busy so that he wouldn’t suspect his surprise party. Stuff like that. I hope you get the situation taken care of! Thank you for coming by my site to wish me happy birthday! :o )  

  • thank you. : )
    and sorry i don’t have an xanga theme.

  • @cjbearr - ”Sorry,” doesn’t seem appropriate in this instance.  Your page layout is your business, and I wouldn’t presume to criticize anyone’s taste.  Perhaps you were not aware of how hard it is to read and that Xanga has provided innovations that make commenting easier for the rest of us.  My comment was meant to be informative.  If you were really “sorry,” wouldn’t you already have changed the layout?

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