September 16, 2005

  • A few hours ago, I had started writing a new blog when the power went
    out.  That has been happening a lot lately, and Greyfox said that
    at his end of the Valley our ISP was down today, too.  I have no
    way of knowing how often such outages occur in more civilized areas,
    but I suspect that we’re somewhat more subject to them here in the
    boonies than most people are.

    Hilary
    the mother cat’s aggression against our dog Koji continues.  A few
    minutes ago, Koji was standing by me in the kitchen and no kittens were
    anywhere near.  Hilary walked up behind Koji and bit him on his
    heel (that backward-facing “knee” on a dog’s hind leg, whatever it’s
    properly called).  Then she jumped onto a convenient surface
    knee-high to me.  When Koji turned toward her, she whacked him
    across the snoot. 


    My urge was to backhand the little feline bitch across the room, but I
    lifted her gently by her scruff, carried her out the front door and
    deposited her on the step.  I know that similar temporary banishments to the
    outer regions have taught Koji some valuable lessons in manners. 
    I also know that cats only learn what they want to learn, so…. who
    knows?

    I’m sorta nostalgic for the time (pictured here) before Hilary had her kittens, when she and Koji were friends.


    Feedback on Feedback

    The dialogue on sorry apologies continues.  The focus has gone
    from my general observations about language and social peculiarities to
    a more specific discussion of twelve-step “amends”.  I welcome
    this, because in discussing it Greyfox and I are obtaining more content
    for our Addicts Unlimited website.  One of our primary purposes
    for that site is to provide reviews of every treatment and recovery
    program we’ve encountered. 

    Of course, the twelve-step programs are
    ubiquitous, and we both have long-term and in-depth familiarity with
    them.  Today, Greyfox posted an entry at his ArmsMerchant
    site about steps 8 and 9, which will eventually become part of the
    content at AuWay.org (that’s not a link because there is still nothing there
    to link to).

    Here is my launch point — the blue is where she disagrees with Greyfox; the red is where I disagree with her:

    I disagree most wholeheartedly with Greyfox! The
    whole process & progress of the Steps is to remove our character
    defects and help us become more real, more spiritual human beings. I
    always thought Bill W. put the word “direct” in front of amends to
    indicate that you have to DO something
    — “I’m sorry”, said to somebody
    else besides the person you hurt, just isn’t good enough. In order to
    be thoroughly rid of whatever it is that drove you to do those hurtful
    things, having to participate in some action of repentenance is
    necessary work to grow past whatever it is that drove you.

    As
    you say, the most sincere amends is to stop doing what you did to cause
    the other person hurt. Sometimes, just the act of acknowledging what
    you did and that you now realize how hurtful it was are the best amends
    of all. Repayment is also soul-cleansing, if possible. In every
    instance, the objective is to create a situation of caring for the
    other person, as a counterbalance to a relationship of manipulation,
    disdain, emotional abuse, physical abuse or whatever it was.

    I’ve
    had to quit saying “I’m sorry.” It’s so glib, so flip, so meaningless.
    The apologies I give outline what I think I’ve done that was hurtful,
    and conclude with something on the order of “it wasn’t my intention to
    hurt you and I apologize for my actions.”

    I don’t feel like I
    captured what I mean with these words, but it’s a start. And the
    comments section really isn’t meant for treatises, is it?

    Posted 9/15/2005 at 10:24 PM by Archaeologist

    Maybe it’s unfair to pick this apart, since Kate says that it doesn’t
    capture what she meant.  Fair or not, it’s there and I’m going to
    use it.  Not only does she not say what she means, I’m pretty sure
    she didn’t understand what I wrote, either.  I have to assume that
    what she wholeheartedly disagreed with was this paragraph, which is the
    only place in that entry where I paraphrased or quoted Greyfox:

    Regarding amends in the 12-step programs, as I said in yesterday’s
    blog, many people think that saying you’re sorry is enough. 
    Greyfox has told me that this interpretation of steps 8 and 9 is just
    to relieve the transgressor’s guilt and isn’t meant or expected to do
    anything to redress actual wrongs.
      I have enough respect for AA’s
    founders to think that they had something more concrete in mind. 
    In my opinion, it would take a very sick and twisted mind to find any relief from guilt in merely saying, “I’m sorry.”

    Kate, it may be different in AA groups that you’ve
    attended.  The
    autonomous nature of individual groups is built into the Twelve
    Traditions.  In groups I have attended, the majority of As
    INTERPRET “amends” as “apology” and INTERPRET “apology” as saying, “I’m
    sorry.” 

    I have taken on sponsees whose previous sponsors relapsed.  I’ve
    been told by sponsees that they had been told that making amends means
    saying you are sorry.  I have heard other people say in meetings
    how hard it was for them to go to people they had wronged and say they
    were sorry.  I think it is reasonable to infer from those things
    that these people think that “amends” means saying you’re sorry. 
    Beyond implication and inference, I have heard still other people state explicitly 
    that making amends means saying you’re sorry.

    Never mind that such hollow and meaningless words don’t do anything to
    make real amends, what I’m getting at here is that in my experience and
    Greyfox’s (which is much broader and longer-term than mine)  many
    if not the majority of people in twelve-step groups think that making
    amends means saying you’re sorry.


    Attributing the wording of Step Nine (or any of the other eleven steps)
    to Bill W. may be an error.  This is a DIRECT quote from Bill W.:



     ”The early AA got its ideas of
    self-examination, acknowledgement of character defects, restitution for
    harm done, and working with others straight from the Oxford Group and
    directly [emphasis added] from Sam Shoemaker, their former leader in America, and from
    nowhere else.” (Friends in Recovery, 1988, p. xxi)



    Regardless of who first came up with the phrasing, I am going to assume
    that somewhere down the line in proofing and editing if ACTIVE had been
    meant, then that would have been what went into print.  “Active” implies
    doing something.  “Direct” implies immediacy as in this sense from onelook:  “adjective:  
    immediate or direct in bearing or force; having nothing
    intervening.”




    Bill’s usage in the direct quote above also
    supports by its context my inference that he understood that meaning of
    “direct.”  In other words, if Bill (or whoever) had meant
    “to
    indicate that you have to DO something,” he would have used “active” or
    another word of similar meaning, and not “direct.”  DIRECT amends
    means, to everyone in every AA or NA meeting where I’ve ever heard a
    discussion of the ninth step,
    making amends directly to the person who was wronged
    This is also supported by the context, the rest of that sentence,
    “except when to do so would injure them or others.”  That I meant
    this sense of “direct” in what I wrote is also supported by my context,
    in that I went on to mention the various sorts of
    indirect  amends taught and practiced in our NA group.

    Gawd, I love semantics!

     
    [Archaeologist or anyone else who may have misinterpreted what I originally wrote and now finds that disagreement to have been misplaced:
    Check out Greyfox's latest blog.  There's something there for any twelve-step True Believer to really disagree with.]


    Doug and I are both antsy this evening, feeling restless and looking
    for reasons why.  We checked newsfeed but none of the headlines
    resonated.  It may be something local that’s tweaking our psychic
    antennae.

    Anyhow, he was browsing through our CD collection for some diversion
    and found one that’s been around for years and never been out of its
    shrink wrap.  This restlessness isn’t exactly comfortable, but as
    an “ill wind” it has blown in some pretty good music.

Comments (8)

  • Hi Kathy – I love Billy Joel… and I love semantics and I hate semantics depends on which side i’m on LOL

    good conversation here – good feedback on feedback… I do believe sometimes we must do things because we are told to do them and it will only be later that we get the purpose …that it clicks and makes sense

  • Hope you find out what’s bothering you soon…..

  • I hate it when I can’t place the source of my ill feelings. Hope it works out!

  • Could not make it past the first paragraph without the need to comment.  Are you saying that people who live in the ‘boonies’ are NOT civilized?  (**runs for dictionary**) 

     Hi GreyFox, Hope this Got a Laugh!  (**MonaLisa smile**)

  • Okay, the cat/dog thing.  She wants to PLAY with Koji.  Watch the others (kittens,cats) play … usually started with an affectionate bite.  It’s just freaking out the poor dog.  Talk to Koji and every time she ‘attacks’ tell him to ‘play with kitty’ and maybe he’ll get it.  More later, as I read through.  She Who Remembers still forgets everything, so if I don’t comment at the time I forget!  Lemme know if I’m PainInAss and I’ll stop it!  – ppss ….. comments still from Murdock.  Okay, Chancy, hit the mouse, I see her out the window and she’s headed back…..

  • COMMON SENSE???

    Okay, here’s an example of when ‘making amends’ would ‘hurt others’:

    You show up in a nursing home and visit your 85 year old Grandmother.  You are working your steps.  As she lays in a puddle of whatever it is she slept in that night, you confess to her that YOU WERE IN A BLACKOUT one time but from what you concluded by doing extensive detective work, is something you NEED to TELL HER. 

    Then you tell her that all her Grandchildren, Great Grandchildren, and Great Great Grandchildren were all fathered by your Grandfather.  It Killed Her. 

    You later realize that you ‘had a slip’ and were in a blackout when you went for your weekly visit.   The CandyStriper told you.  When you woke up in rehab. 

    Now the restraining order keeps you from the funeral.  Feel Better Now? 

  • Woo hoo–I got some comp time today after all–finished strikinbg the stand at just before five, lib closes at six.  Too tired and wired to really grok yer blog, but here is one more thing that may be appropriate–Bill W. ALSO said, and this is a direct quote, that AA “is a spiritual kindergarten.”

    And don’t forget Bill W.’s own attempts at heresy, when he wanted to add nutritional therapy to the “program,” only to get shot down royally by the World Conference (or whatever the big time AA poobahs called themselves at the time.)

  • I need to come back and read, but wanted to stop by and wish you a very Happy Birthday!!!!

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